Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Welcome back to the GenShift Podcast. I'm Dr. Katherine Jeffery. If you're new here, GenShift is where we slow down. Take time to look across the generations with curiosity and explore what it means to lead and work well together. Each episode digs into the real stories behind generational patterns, what shaped us, what drives us today, and how we can better understand one another at work and in life.

Today we're focusing on the millennials. This generation has been analyzed from every angle they've been praised, criticized, misunderstood, and often framed as both the hope and the very frustration of the modern workplace. But behind the labels is a story shaped by economic swings, rapid technological change, rising debt, and shifting expectations around purpose and stability.

We will look at what formed millennials, what they value now, and how their early experiences continue to shape our workplaces today. Then we'll explore how our millennial guests view leadership belonging in the future of work. So let's get started.

 The millennials were born roughly between 1981 and 1996, and they sit at a cultural crossroads.

 Many remember life before the internet, but they also helped build the digital world that we now live in. They entered adulthood during a financial crisis, watched institutions wobble and learned to navigate constant change. A few themes around the millennials that stand out to me.

 The first one is early economic instability ended up shaping millennial expectations. Many millennials started their careers during layoffs, hiring freezes and benefits that were shrinking. That early instability still shapes how they think about risk, security, and long-term planning. The second theme is that technology grew faster than the culture.

Millennials moved from an analog childhood into a digital adulthood, and that shift influenced how they communicate, how they learn, and how they adapt. The third theme is that purpose really matters to millennials. They want work that aligns with their values. They are not seeking perfection in the workplace, but they do want clarity about why a task or role matters.

They want to know the why. Also, for millennials, burnout is common.

Long hours, rising costs and constant availability has pushed many to redefine success around sustainability and wellbeing. Millennials also tend to value collaboration over hierarchy. Many of them thrive under leaders who coach more than command. They value clarity, transparency, and relationship, which just so happens to be at the core of the GenShift approach.

These themes help us understand millennials not as stereotypes, but as people shaped by a very rapid changing world. So we have two awesome guests today. I think both of these people just have incredible hearts and they're gonna represent their generation very well. So I will let you two introduce yourselves.

Tell us a little about who you are, what you do, and then where do you fall within the millennial generation. 

Andres Alvarado: Okay, perfect. Thank you for the intro, Katherine. My name is Andres Alvarado. My professional title senior VP operations at Moran Builders.

So we're a commercial general contractor headquartered in Charlotte with seven regional offices spanning from the Mid-Atlantic throughout the Southeast and Texas. A little bit about myself. I was born in 93, so I'm 32. I definitely agree with a lot of the things that captured in the intro the analog childhood and digital adulthood.

I thought I was good at technology until I started working and realized that there was a whole lot of stuff that happened while I was in high school and college. But but yeah, no I'm excited for the conversation and I appreciate you having us.

Awesome. 

Marissa Jennings : Yeah, thanks Katherine. I'm excited to be here.

So my name is Marissa Jennings and I am based in Atlanta. My professional title is a regional executive. I work for an insurance company I am on the early end of the millennial. So I was born in 84. I'm very excited to be here. Just talk through some of the differences. I know Katherine and I talked through being an older millennial versus, some of the younger ones.

So looking forward to this. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. So you all will bring a good blend because you're on the opposite ends of the millennial generation.

So you two millennials have often gotten a very bad rap and as time Magazine labeled you lazy, narcissistic, and entitled, and I actually know many millennials are so happy that Gen Z has arrived in the workforce because now they're catching some of that slack that you all got for so many years.

So tell me, in the midst of all the negative stereotypes around millennials, what is your favorite thing about being a millennial?

Marissa Jennings : That's a great question.

My favorite thing about being a millennial, I think there's a lot of depth there where I think you did a great job, Katherine, in the opening on just articulating the various aspects of being a millennial between technology and financial crisis.

And I think that there is at times a lack of understanding of all the things that millennials have gone through. The transition, the change, and there's always a seeking with millennials for more. So that purpose piece I think is very spot on. Like, I just turned 41 this year and I find this a lot within my friend group on the path that we're on.

Is that what we still want and is that still fulfilling? And that's very much a conversation that we have openly, and these are in senior leadership roles now with where we're at in our careers and things like that. But I think the depth with millennials, I've always found really inspiring and the purpose piece of the decisions that we make are for a little bit more of a deeper meaning and purpose in seeking.

Andres Alvarado: I agree with that, Marissa. And thinking as far as like the millennials go and there's, a whole spread of different personality types and everything. But something that's helped me succeed as well too is that millennials want to work as a team and they want to get things done together.

And if a decision has to be made that is potentially not favorable for one person, but it's better for the entire group, a lot of people tend to understand that and are good with the greater cause. That's one of the things I enjoy about being a millennial and just, being able to think back on a childhood that wasn't only technology running around in the yard playing backyard football, whatever it was and wanting that for, future generations as well too.

I think that'll hopefully start to come back whenever, all the millennials are having kids and start having kids. Just the value of being outside in the dirt and that technology has a time and a place. 

Marissa Jennings : You bring up a good point, Andres, too. I do see millennials trying to be very thoughtful on parenting differently than the way they were parented.

And there's a little thread of, we still remember things prior to technology. So how do you incorporate some of that? There's various different gentle parenting methods, different ways that millennials are approaching the whole parenting world now too. But I think they're very much open to learning different ways and researching that and trying to show up differently in that next stage of life too.

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Marissa, what can you tell us? 'cause Andres, I know, you just got married. Congratulations. Thank you. And so you don't have kids yet, correct? So kids. Yeah. Yeah. So Marissa, you have some kids. A lot of people will ask how millennials are parenting differently. You brought up gentle parenting, like what does that mean to you?

How are you applying that? 

Marissa Jennings : So I am no parenting expert. I just wanna throw that out there and nor do I have it figured out. But I do think there is a ton of information getting sent out, especially through social media to individuals or millennials, with who are parenting and just different styles, listening to your kids differently, showing up a bit differently than how it was in the late eighties, early nineties. It's just a matter of being a bit more present I think. And, understanding children and behavior a little bit differently than what they did when we were growing up. Different needs of kids, different sensitivities, that kind of thing. Again, there's no perfect scenario, but I think the theme that I've been pretty inspired with a lot of millennials is their openness to learn that the way that they were raised as, children, they're willing to maybe take a different approach and want to be better.

And I think that's really inspiring too. Whether you agree with the approach or not, the yearning for knowledge and to do things differently or learn something different. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. And you all have a lot more knowledge that you can access than older generations did as well, right?

Andres Alvarado: Whether it's good information or bad information we have, right?

That's right. All the junk is another thing. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. And now in today's world, as we move further into ai, it's whoa, we all have to learn how to discern really well. So thinking then about your own childhoods, what messages did you grow up hearing about success work or what a good life should look like?

Andres Alvarado: For me it's funny. My dad started Moran Builders, so it's a family business. We have a lot of leadership in place now, so it's not a mom and pop, but it's funny, my brother and I, we would get upset with my dad whenever we were younger because it felt like every single dinner there was like a life lesson to be had.

There was no just normal dinner time conversation. It would always, a story about playing with a buddy in the backyard would turn into some sort of life lesson. And, looking back on it, I'm very thankful that it did because, we're 12, 13 years old saying, dad, what the heck?

Another life lesson. What they say, you have to tell someone something seven times. I think we were told way more than seven, but just like the repetition of hearing some of those things of what you should be as an individual, as a person contributing to society.

And working from an early age as well too. Whenever I was 15, my dad's like, you gotta get a job. I said, where do I get a job? I'm 15. And he said, you can come work on some job sites. You can pick up trash and sweep floors. And I said, okay, sounds good. That's how I started this, but just working and being productive early, of course I love vacation just like anybody else, but, having a sense of purpose and that internal drop.

That started definitely at an early age. And who knows if it's nature or nurture but I definitely think that the childhood experience has had a lot to do with that. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. And those messages being just drummed into your head, right? 

Marissa Jennings : Yeah. And similar, to a couple of the comments you made.

I grew up in a smaller town in Ohio and there was never a question whether or not you're gonna go to work. There was four of us growing up, very middle class family. If you wanted new school clothes, you're gonna work summer jobs. And I think my first job was definitely babysitting early on and then like busing tables at restaurants.

I've worked in many restaurants and just trying to, get through summer and during the school year and that kind of thing. But it was very much. The mentality of get a job to support yourself. There was never a whole lot of dialogue around what are some of your dreams and desires and how could that align for a career?

That just wasn't the conversations going on. At least in my town and my family, it was more of, you're gonna get to school, you're gonna get scholarships, you're gonna figure out a way to pay for it, and you're going to find a job with health insurance and a way to support yourself.

There's, benefit to that too, like practicality around setting expectations. That was the family I grew up in. It was about hard work that, that was definitely instilled. You're gonna have to work really hard. My dad had a small business.

My mom worked there with him and they were very hard workers. Yep. 

Andres Alvarado: And aside from the work thought, just thinking of transformative experiences as in childhood sports was a huge one for me. I played a team sport. As a little kid it was soccer and then, middle school and high school playing rugby and football. You're there with your team, you're practicing you're duking it out with each other, Monday through Thursday and then your game's on Friday, and then it's you and your team against the world.

And that's like the mentality and what gets me excited about the professional space now. It's like it's us against the world. And, you can rally some team members to get excited about what you're doing and then it becomes a lot of fun. So sports was a huge thing for me whenever I was growing up.

If you had asked me in high school, I wasn't a student, I was a rugby player. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: I love that. Yeah. 

Andres Alvarado: I was a student though. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: You still have to graduate. 

Andres Alvarado: Exactly. Correct. 

Marissa Jennings : That, that, that brings up a good point too, just like transformative experiences. Growing up sports definitely was involved from a childhood perspective.

And then one other thing that just stuck out as you were saying that too, is as a young kid, my parents used to bring us down to city missions in Cleveland, Ohio. I remember my dad, he would take one of us at a time and I would hand out rolls for food. His big thing was, to see different aspects.

And that was very formative, I would say in my early years. Just the need out there and the hunger of giving back some other way in small capacities. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: So how did these early messages or experiences shape what you then expected adulthood to be like? 

Andres Alvarado: I expected to have everything figured out by the time I was getting a full-time job.

That's at least what everybody made it look like. I don't think I had expectations of what it adulthood would be.

I went to college, you graduate college, and then. Your goal the last year of college is land a full-time job and then you land a full-time job no matter where the city is. You go there, you find an apartment and you just make it happen.

I was more so just going with the flow and happy to get a full-time position out of school. 

Marissa Jennings : And it's interesting. That's a great question, Katherine, because I'm thinking through when I graduated from undergrad and I remember feeling really disappointed the first year where you go through all this structure of college and then you get to your full-time job and a, I remember looking at my paycheck being like, how does anyone expect me to live off this and pay rent and then taxes and all the stuff that gets taken out.

So there was like a realization on money, and then I remember feeling really disappointed around the holidays because you don't get like chunks of time off. And I didn't have a ton of PTO 'cause I was, an entry level job. I remember that first year being such a struggle because it felt so disappointing.

I'm like, this cannot be the rest of our lives. Going through those seasons and even seeing like interns in our office now, or talking through like the scariness of finding a job, I'm like, it's not your end all, be all job. Like it probably won't be your favorite one either, unfortunately.

I hope it is, but like it, it may not.

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Was that the same for you, Andres? 'cause you came into the workforce, about 10 years behind Marissa.

So was that similar? 

Andres Alvarado: I don't remember any disappointment. What I do remember is that whenever I had some buddies in college that were a year older than me, and then I had, some buddies who were still in college whenever I was out. I remember all the group chats going off whenever they were off, their full-time job saying, enjoy college, enjoy it as much as you can.

The real world is serious. But yeah, I mean it was definitely an adjustment. And, interning in college, for two and a half months that would feel like a long two and a half months, 'cause you're a student, you're going, you're spending your summer somewhere and then you look back and oh, the summer's over.

I'm going back to school now. Two and a half months is like a blink of an eye being in the routine. So I definitely think part of it is like. Just getting into the routine of everyday work and professional lifestyle is definitely a big part of it. The first ramp up time that is a little bit slow, the first few months maybe, but then once you get busy, then it's crazy how fast the time passes. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Once you start adulting.

Andres Alvarado: Yeah. 

Marissa Jennings : Getting into a rhythm. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Seriously. So how did entering the job market during or after the recession shape your sense of career possibilities or stability?

Marissa Jennings :  So it was interesting. I graduated in oh seven. I graduated from John Carroll University, so it was a smaller Jesuit school and they had a program where you could go away for a year to volunteer and then get in. It was like a leap year and then get into the workforce.

And I was looking into that. I remember talking to my parents about it and they were like, you are outta your mind. Again, it goes back to the practicality of like, how I was raised. How are you gonna pay your school loans? How are you gonna get health insurance? So I ended up, in a state of, oh this is the responsible thing to do.

I should get a job. So I took a job. It was like oh seven then oh eight, timeframe crash and the market happened. It significantly shaped my view of things because. At that point, no one was hiring then. So I got in at an entry level job. Luckily I was probably like lowest on the pay totem pole.

So like I wasn't at risk of losing that job. But everyone, in the workforce, it was like this fear of it because of everything going on in the world. And then my friends that were in grad school, they just kept staying in school because there were no jobs. You might as well do something versus trying to get into a market that no one's hiring.

So there's a lot of uncertainty and I think how that shaped my decisions, I went for the secure options. So I still ended up switching jobs like a year later. But it was in a very steady industry. It was in a big city. I ended up moving to. I wasn't taking like a risky job in a startup company in that season.

You went to where you felt like you'd have some stability because of the market and what was going on. People felt very lucky to have a job because so many people were losing their jobs. So it was just a different mentality. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Totally different. Andres, did you experience any of that?

Andres Alvarado: Honestly, I don't think so. I graduated December of 2016. Yeah. So then I started working Q1 of 2017. Thankfully construction has been pretty steady and consistent on the commercial side. So thankfully, I was able to join Moran.

I was gonna work for a, for another larger national general contractor, and my dad called me and said, hey, we're growing like crazy. Would you consider hiring on? So of course I said yes. Whenever I joined it was, Hey, we're busy, we have these projects, let's keep on growing. But something that obviously put the world on hold, which I remember vividly is how COVID affected us and how COVID affected all of our projects.

And thankfully we were granted the necessary worker designation or I forget exactly what it's called. So we were able to keep our projects going. It was a big ask for us to have all of our superintendents on site and trade partners working on projects.

While this very questionable viruses is going on. So some clients paused all projects, stopped, all projects, a bunch of architects stopped drawing. We definitely felt the hit, in 2020 and 2021 because of that slow down. But by that point, me personally, I was already in the workforce and had a few years under my belt.

We were able to keep everybody during COVID. Didn't have any layoffs or anything. We all worked together and banded together. So proud of that. But definitely COVID is probably one of those the blips on the radar. During my professional career I didn't feel too much of the downturn by the time I graduated.

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. It's interesting being on the opposite ends of the millennial generation, your experiences with the economy. And because Marissa, you were deep into your career by the time COVID hit. Yeah. Okay. So we both talked about purpose a little bit earlier. When you think about purpose at work, like what does that actually mean for you?

Andres Alvarado: For me, purpose at work has evolved honestly. Hiring on, as an assistant superintendent, my purpose was to execute the project that I was assigned to the best of my ability, and then moving to project management. Then I have multiple superintendents who count on me, and I'm ultimately responsible for the projects.

And the role where I am now is supporting majority of our regions to be successful. Currently where I'm right now is less my individual success and me doing things correctly. More so my purpose is making sure that people have the tools that they need to be successful.

And that, giving people tools and training and making them be better than they thought they could ever be is extremely rewarding feeling. So I would say my purpose has evolved with each role that I've been in. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: I love that. 

Marissa Jennings : Yeah, I would agree. I think it has shifted over the years too, as you go into more senior level leadership roles, of course there's always the business expectations and performance metrics that you are expected to hit.

But there's also a big piece of people development, and I always say how people show up on your team. In your office at work is really important. That's how they show up to their families at night or their significant others and how they show up in other aspects of their life. So I think building culture and environments where people feel, I always say safe seen and celebrated, are really like key pillars that you want to build.

And I think it's, as leaders, it's really important to take that responsibility on and make that a key priority too. 

Andres Alvarado: Completely agree with that. Culture is huge and we all work way too much to be miserable at work. It is just, it's not an option. That is the biggest thing.

Whenever there is a potential negative individual on the team. It takes some coaching because honestly Marissa, I can't speak for your company, but sometimes people aren't ready for a positive culture. And may be jaded to, if we talk about teamwork, they might say, yeah, my last company talked about teamwork, but then I got stabbed in the back whenever I asked someone a question.

So definitely we've seen some individuals be jaded potentially. There's definitely coaching opportunities and we've had some individuals that have leaned into our culture more than we ever would've thought. And that's where like Marissa, you saying like you create like that safe space for people to be the professional that they can be.

Marissa Jennings : I think there's a way you can create really good culture and still hold people accountable to results. I think those can coexist, and I think that's really important. 

Andres Alvarado: Completely agree. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Okay, so as a Gen Xer, I have to ask you about this now, Marissa, you said that part of the culture shaping is feeling safe, seen, and celebrated.

Now, if this was a Gen X podcast, the word safety would not show up in a cultural sense, right? So as millennials what does that mean to you?

Marissa Jennings : I guess I'll start since I had mentioned that I think it's really showing up as who you are is really important. So do you have an opinion? Do you have an idea? It doesn't have to be exactly what I'm thinking, but it's having a safe environment to be able to say what you're thinking and not be judged or walk out of the room.

And I'd be like, I can't believe that person said that. Building cultures of where people talk about each other or you don't feel like you can show up in your own authentic way, is a big culture issue. If that's what's being built. So I think the safety is just being able to say what you think without it getting like misconstrued or someone's gonna back stab you, that kind of thing.

I think that really is toxic for cultures. 

Andres Alvarado: Yeah. Agreed. And for me, the thought of safety is, whenever you're heading into work, the office, the job site. Are you miserable when you're driving in? Or are you happy to go and see everybody that you're about to go see or go see the person that, that you go report to?

And Marissa, to your comment, like with culture and accountability, I 1000000% agree with that because at the end of the day, we all have to get things done here. And, if someone feels safe doing something that is completely incorrect, then this might not be the safe place for that. The understanding and, I don't want to speak for the whole generation here of millennials, but I feel like the understanding of, when to work and when to play is there. And I think that, having that clear for everybody also allows people to know when it's time to goof off and when it's time to have fun as a team. And then when it's time, to buckle up and let's get some work done. So I think that falls under the safety aspect, just to know the ground rules of where we are and what we stand for. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: This is one of the things I love and appreciate about the millennial generation and how you're shifting, how the workplace operates, because I don't think anyone wants a culture where you feel unsafe, right?

Or you feel like someone's talking behind your back or, there's all these toxic people, right? Nobody wants that, but Xers and boomers like this is how it is, and we just had to suck it up and you had to push through it. And you might have been pretty miserable as you're pulling up to the job site, right?

Oh my gosh, do I have to put up with this again? And you're like yes I do. And so I love that you all are saying. Why do we have to live this way? Why can't we change it? And you're doing things about it. And Marissa, is this mantra, safe scene, celebrated? Is that something your company has adopted?

Is that something you do with your team?

Marissa Jennings : No, it's not a company thing by any means. It's just more of something I try to instill, with my region and my team. And my theory is you can only change starts with you. So if you don't feel like the company has that culture, start with your own team.

Start with implementing things in a very small scale, because I do think positive behavior will trickle through organizations just like toxic will too. There are times where you're not gonna make drastic changes just depending on your level of what you're doing across an organization, but you can start somewhere.

And that's what I try to tell people. Just start where you're at today and the position you're at today, and then you can control how you're showing up for the day and that will influence the people around you. 

Andres Alvarado: Yep. And going into that as well too is entry level is entry level. And whenever I was, entering the workforce, you just have to deal with stuff.

And other people's management styles. You see their communication styles. You may not agree with it. The person maybe 10 to 15 years more senior than you. So your opinion is not really as heavily weighed at that point. So I think that helps as well too, to be able to develop how you want to show up as a leader and how you want to communicate with people.

Because you really don't know your style until you see what you like, what you don't like, have some of those negative experiences to help shape you. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Love it. And so it's like the ripple effect, right? One person can create a lot of change throughout the organization.

It can reverberate if we take those steps. And so you all have really moved in that direction of how do we make work a place that's enjoyable and where we can all be productive together. And Andres, you really talked about that collaboration idea, right? So the millennials are known as the collaboration generation, and both of you talked about how sports influenced that part of you.

We're all in this together, we're moving in this positive direction, and we don't have to be miserable along the way. 

Andres Alvarado: Yeah and collaboration for a lot of things, but then it gets to a point, Marissa, I'm sure you agree, where a decision has to be made and you can collaborate as much as you want, but then there's some decisions that have to be done autonomously, and that's just the way that it's gotta go.

The more buy-in you get, usually the better what your single decision will have to be. 

Marissa Jennings : Yeah. And that's where I say I don't think you need to forego performance just for culture. I think that's toxic too. In a way. I just think that if you create an environment where people are happier in what they do. They've actually produce better work. When they feel safe, they actually make better decisions, so I think that is where you can still hold people accountable. People should still have performance objectives. You can have tough conversations, but we can do it in a better way.

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: You're both in leadership roles, did you come into the workplace knowing how to hold your peers accountable or other team members? I hear a lot of millennials say, like, when they get into managerial positions, they're like, I don't know how to do this. Because they have that collaborative mindset they believe in, we're more all equals rather than the hierarchy.

So was that a growth edge for both of you or was that something that came naturally.

Marissa Jennings : I think it's something that's developed personally. I think like some people just have more natural leadership abilities, but in terms of moving from maybe an individual contributor to now you're leading your team, that's a hard transition to make. And I think you have to have some really good mentors.

You have to have some strong leaders that can give you candid feedback, coaching. There are multiple times I've screwed things up. So badly. And that's how you learn, right? And I think every season of my life has actually given me so many humbling experiences where it actually makes me a better leader.

I think, especially being a parent now, I show up very differently than what I did in my late twenties dealing with working parents and finding a lot of annoyance around the flexibility needed on things, and now I'm like, that is the most critical thing for me. So I think. Some of it comes with just time.

You're not gonna have it all figured out. And that's the beauty of it. You evolve and you grow. But I do think millennials are a very big into self-development and developing themselves and learning about themselves. That's like an interest of a lot of us. So I think there's beauty in that too.

So there's a lot of evolution and change that goes on. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. Like that growth mindset, right? You wanna be your best selves no matter where you are, no matter what you're doing. It doesn't matter. I wanna grow.

Marissa Jennings : And I find millennials trying to take different parts of their lives and become better and yeah.

That's very inspiring. Yep. 

Andres Alvarado: I completely agree. And like with the direct reports portion of it and becoming a supervisor for the first time I wasn't good at it at all. Whenever I came from the field and went into project management, I had, some of my first assistant project managers to help me out with the projects.

I just, I wasn't good at giving direction and I think that the direction that I did give wasn't clear at all. So there was definitely like some communication challenges to figure out. And as Marissa said, like having a mentor be there with you and see how you do things. I think the biggest thing is to give you the feedback on the side.

Let it happen as it's happening, but then Hey, maybe you could have done this, or have you thought about, trying to get the person engaged by doing this. It definitely does not come natural when you're graded on your personal results and then all of a sudden you have people who you're graded for their results, how do you get them to be contributing players without being a dictator or without steamrolling them and telling them that your way is the best way. So it's definitely a balance. It's definitely tricky to figure out early on. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Yes it is. 

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Dr. Katherine Jeffery: So you both talked about mentors and when I talk to people about managing millennials, I'm like, we actually don't talk about managing.

We coach millennials. 'cause that's where you're used to and you're talking about having somebody there, or at least pretty quickly to the moment to be able to process what you just did so you can learn from it. 

Andres Alvarado: One of my mentors it's actually really cool. He was the leader for the South Florida market whenever I was working down there working on site and working in project management.

And now he and I are working side by side next to each other leading some of the departments. I think it's interesting. He and I, we just get along, but also his oldest son is my exact age. So I think that there maybe has been some, parallel like that to where he and I communicate very well because, he is a little bit younger than my dad, but, there's similar age gaps and I'm sure, he knows how to communicate with someone who's my age and has since I started my career.

So I think that's really helped a lot. But I don't know what I would've done. I definitely wouldn't be in the position that I am without his guidance and a lot of others in the team. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Have you ever told them that? 

Andres Alvarado: Yes, I have. Awesome. But I'll have to reiterate now that we're formally partners right now starting the year this year awesome.

Marissa Jennings : Yeah, and similar I had a woman who probably 20 years older than me if not a little bit more, but I always say wisdom really comes with age, and so you do need to have some people in different seasons of life than you that have just done certain things longer.

There is a lot of talented people across the spectrum of age and generations, but I think from a leadership perspective and things that I need to learn, she has always been a great sounding board for me, where when I had to do really tough conversations, we were going through transitions with my company doing significant layoffs, I called her right away.

Like, how do you do this? In a way because I was just carrying it, it was pretty heavy some of the stuff I had to deliver. And you just need someone who's been there multiple times and knows how to do it the right way, do it the wrong way. And I think mentors are critical for success and people that you trust.

I think forced relationships are never gonna work. Like some of the real structured programs where we get paired up with people, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But usually like natural relationships that build with people, those tend to last a lot longer and tend to, I think, be more fruitful.

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: It is funny. I was just gonna ask were these mentors like assigned to you or these people you chose to be with, but you just answered? Yeah. 

Marissa Jennings : You tend to just naturally gravitate towards certain type of personalities and I think sometimes when it happens naturally, it tends to be more authentic.

Andres Alvarado: Yeah, completely agree. And yeah in my situation was working nights and weekends on a project and this leader had just hired onto the company to help our South Florida operation. I was out on site at 11 o'clock at night on a Friday. And then he just rolls in. He is like, Hey, what's up?

I was like, what are you doing here? He's I'm here to spend the day spend the night with you. I was like, all so then he, we worked and, had some time just to sit and bond, for me as like a 23-year-old new grad out there kinda on my own to have the leader be there on a Friday night, go through the whole night with me is this guy cares.

And it's like the little things like that where it's like what you're saying you just get naturally drawn to someone who's experienced and who can help. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. That's really meaningful. They're like, they're spending their night with you, yeah. That's a sacrifice on your behalf. Yeah. And you felt that.

Let's talk about leadership for just a minute or so. Like what kind of leadership has actually helped you both thrive? What leadership have you operated under that you're like, yes, this is what I needed to really excel at what I do?

Marissa Jennings : Okay. Let me think through this. Thinking back in my corporate career, I've had a lot of different types of leaders. I think consistency, number one I really like and thrive under someone who is consistent. Hot and cold leaders personally drive me crazy.

If I don't know who you're gonna be the day I walk in and then someone different the next day, I just really appreciate consistency and clear communication. I don't like trying to read between the lines and what someone wants or what someone doesn't want. So consistency and communication are like too critical ones.

In terms of style, you have to work with a lot of different people, so everyone will gravitate probably to something more similar to themselves, I find. But that's not gonna be the reality of working. You're gonna have to work with a lot of different people. Some less desirable than others.

And I think if you can master that art of getting along with a lot of different types of people, that you're gonna be very successful. But for me, a lot of it's been that consistency and clear communication, and I can usually work through the rest of it. 

Andres Alvarado: Awesome. I 100% agree with you, Marissa, on that.

And I think the consistency of the biggest thing I don't have too much more to add to everything what you said, Marissa, but consistency, because if someone's consistent, then you can learn how to work with 'em. If it's you don't know what you're getting on the day, then it's hard for you to adapt your style to either work under or lead the individual.

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: And then in your own roles as leaders over the years, what kind of things have made leadership harder for you as you've advanced in your career?

Andres Alvarado: For me I am now leading many individuals that I was working in the field with side by side. And that is an interesting dynamic because a lot of times there's deep friendships there but then also there's objective work and business outcomes that have to happen. That has been a challenge throughout the years of, thankfully we have many long tenured team members and a lot of the team that I have great connection with, great Bond with.

They've seen me move roles and move up in the company, but it's difficult when something corporate or workwise comes up, that is potentially not an easy conversation because then it's a not easy conversation with a friend and not just, a team member of the company.

That definitely takes some strain.

Marissa Jennings : So this may sound like an odd answer, but I think the most maybe not challenging but surprising thing I've seen within leadership is the higher I move up, the less impressed I become with senior leadership. And I know that sounds like counterintuitive, but I remember as a new grad, right outta school, just being in such awe of like the decision making or what some of these senior leaders are doing.

And now I feel like I can see behind the curtain a little bit and I was like, wow, this is how the decisions get made, and I just I find that a little surprising at times, just how things get done. So that's what kind of came to mind. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: You made me think of the Wizard of Oz. 

Marissa Jennings : Exactly, I've had that conversation with people where you just almost idolize certain people.

Yeah. On this point of oh, wow. And then you realize I feel like some people are just really flying by the seat of their pants too, making some of these calls and hoping things work out. So it almost, it gives me a more human view of just about anyone, everyone gets dressed the same way in the morning, that's right. Everyone has their own issues going on, and it doesn't matter what your title is, what someone's promoted you as. I think that there is just a very humbling thing to realize. Everyone's trying to like, get through their day and make the right decisions with the most amount of information they have.

Some make better than others, and I've just been less enamored by titles these days. 

Andres Alvarado: Yeah. That was a big realization for me as far as like titles and professionals, because, being a new hire you hear these titles and, these names and these people like, oh, have you gone to lunch with them?

Or this and that? It's no, I haven't, I'm actually a shy person, said, why would they want to go to lunch with me or connect with me? But then after a few years, you realize you go to lunch and you do these interactions and you learn who they are as a person. They're a person first then they do their job, they're the professional that they are.

But, most of the time people want to talk about the personal stuff. Of course, work has to make its way in there. If you can connect on a personal way, it's much more enjoyable and it goes much farther than, just trying to connect on some transactional way.

Marissa Jennings : Yeah. And I remember one time hearing from a very senior level board member, their resume was impressive, right? So it would be like, wow, that's like really cool. And then you start like digging into, to your point, Andres, like the personal side, and you realize what they had to sacrifice to get to where they're at.

And I go, I don't find that admirable. Like the fact that you had to give up your family and multiple spouses and all. So I think it just puts in perspective success versus that purpose point and like the value piece is really as I move through my career, even more and more important to me than the titles or what the money looks like or anything else like that.

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: That's good. That's really good. So would you say it's given you more empathy for people who have walked the road before you, or has it given you more boundaries as a result because you're like, I don't want that. Or maybe it's even a little of both. 

Marissa Jennings : I would say empathy. I don't discount, especially being a woman in the workforce.

What the women that have gone ahead of us in some of this, what they've gone through like that, they are trailblazers, and there was a lot that they've had to fight through to even get us to where we're at today in some industries, in some markets. And I think it's a lot of empathy and just understanding people a little bit more for what that looked like.

And especially even being a working mom now, because we do have more flexibility like workplace flexibility than some of my friends that are 10, 15, 20 years ahead of me. And they couldn't make it to that preschool program or that elementary school. Like they just couldn't get back into the office from enough time.

So there's been a lot of work done to pave the way for a more gentle work corporate culture, and I'm grateful for that. 

Andres Alvarado: That's what I hope to see as well too, would be an impressive resume and few things that were given up to receive that. Of course there's always trade offs.

You're not gonna be able to have it all. But I think the time, when the boomers were in our position. They were being managed by the top down leadership style of the traditionalist Katherine as you said in, in your talk. And that's completely different, a lot less understanding I can imagine, than what's going on right now.

I think that the times have been just significantly different with what's expected when you show up at work. And thankful that the generations ahead of us have helped pave that path and that we're looking at something where you can be high achieving and still have a little bit of less, I don't wanna say work life balance, because that's honestly work life balance for me.

It's the line is extremely thin. Like the weekends and a bunch of stuff, events and things is work, it's also a family business. So I'm able to spend time with my dad and my mom and my brother in different capacities than a lot of other people. But find, there always has to be a trade off and it is just identifying what the trade off is and hopefully the workplace is getting to a place where we can be reasonable and rational.

If you're getting your work done, then go into, a preschool graduation on a Wednesday morning shouldn't be too big of a deal. If the results are there, then I feel like we can be rational and that is more valuable than the hour and a half of work that you would do sitting in the office on Wednesday knowing that preschool graduation or something's going on.

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Yes. That's a good recognition. Yeah, and I think Marissa, to what you were saying, I think all the boomers that were listening are like, thank you for recognizing that we went through this. 

Marissa Jennings : I need to recognize it. Yes. It wasn't easy, and I do think that people gloss over it a lot too, to be honest.

I think there is a lack of recognition there. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: And it was a really big deal. You hear stories of women in the world of work when the boomers were going through. It's wow. So yeah. Yeah. We are standing on the shoulders of the generations that have gone before.

Marissa Jennings : There is significant progress that has been made. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Yes. And recognizing with each generation there's good things we're bringing in and there's not so good things we're bringing in.

So let's talk about feedback for just a minute.

Like how do you both like to receive feedback and what makes feedback feel trustworthy to you? What are the important or essential ingredients to feedback if you're actually gonna receive it and do something with it? 

Andres Alvarado: For me, I would say, fact-based feedback. Something that feels less subjective and something that is objective of something which I did, or something which I could do better, or the way I said something multiple people say that maybe that it made them feel a certain way or perceive a certain way.

As much facts and intel behind the feedback for me because then, being a rational person, you say, oh geez, that is not what I intended at all. So it's less subjective for me, just objective feedback, intel information. And I don't need feedback timely, but if something happened today, yesterday, I'd rather know sooner rather than later than know that someone's mulling over it for a week or a week and a half before bringing it up.

Marissa Jennings : I agree, timely feedback. I know I had some, my mentor say, feedback is a gift. I don't think people always give good feedback. I think that's a hard thing to come by. So if you have someone who can give you really constructive feedback, that truly is a gift. And I also don't think you need to take everyone's feedback.

Sometimes people will just dump on you because they're feeling like that's what they want to do. And I always say you can pick and choose what you want to receive in that moment. So I, that's took me a little bit of time to figure out too, like there are certain people I have high respect for, high regards for, and I would love to hear their feedback.

There's others that I don't and so they can, they feel free to share it, but I'm not gonna always receive it either. 

Andres Alvarado: Yeah. 

Marissa Jennings : And that's took years to come around. 

Andres Alvarado: Thank you for your feedback.

One thing on, on the feedback topic, I think, I really think it has to go both ways. Me as a manager or as anybody who's expected to lead people, yes, it is my responsibility to give feedback timely and consistently, but feedback will get so much better and so much more consistent. If the person just asks you for feedback, Hey, I had this call this is what we settled on.

What do you think? And just little things like that. Feedback doesn't have to be a negative at all. But it's, asking someone that you trust for that feedback will guarantee that you get feedback much more than waiting for them to tell you something. That's just something, it's gotta go both ways for you to actually continue to grow and build yourself.

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: I just wanna say that one of the reasons I was excited to have you both on here is because you're both just so wise, so I love what you have to say. 

Andres Alvarado: A lot of gray hairs.

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: The millennials have a lot of wisdom and you two represent that really well. When we think about burnout, like what does burnout mean to you and how have your limits and boundaries even shifted over time?

Marissa Jennings : I think millennials deal with a lot of burnout, and I think you mentioned that when you first started. And so I think we live in this culture of just busyness beyond busyness where we get a lot thrown at us just in personal lives and work lives and just everything, social media. There's this culture of hustle and more more consuming, more, we need more of this.

You got this new product, you have this. And I think all of that is exhausting and I think it leads to this culture of burnout. And I think there's this something I've tried to start working on is just what do boundaries actually look like? I think to Andres's point, there's no work life balance.

That's false. But I think a lot of millennials have been told you can do it all. And I, you can't. I think Michelle Obama just mentioned something like this on a podcast like being superwoman is not a badge of honor. And so usually you don't get to that point where you realize that until you get to a burnout stage and something needs to change and you feel exhausted and you feel out of alignment and there's just so much going on.

A lot of people are doing a lot of deep self work to try to figure out what are my values, where are my boundaries? And how do you avoid this burnout culture that you see everyone else living in? And that's a hard thing to do.

Andres Alvarado: Yeah. Burnout is a difficult discussion because sometimes say, in our business, we can have two or three months where we're just absolutely firing on all cylinders. Everybody's allocated. We're doing what we have to do to get done because we'll see in three months from now, we're gonna have a little bit of reprieve.

If you have so much workload on you and looking at it objectively, you're not gonna have that workload on you in the next two weeks. It's difficult as a business to be able to make huge shifts to try and save that burnout. Because we're in construction, we're only as good as where the jobs are that we land. What we try and do, and, I'm sure that all employers try and do is just mitigate and manage the workload.

There's always those team members who say they can take on more, but as their leader and knowing them as a person, you have to be able to tell 'em, no, you cannot take on more.

So it is a balance, as a leader, trying to make sure that you don't let people get to that stage. But sometimes you can only do so much to, to help people with that.

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: It's so true. 

Marissa Jennings : And just to clarify too, like hustling is not a bad thing. Yeah.

Being driven and wanting to succeed. These are all great qualities. It's just a matter of when you feel like it's at such an expense to other things that you value. I always look at it like when your value system becomes out of line, I feel like that's when the burnout really happens and the seeking for like, is this it, is there more?

And I think that's people get really tired. Yeah.

Andres Alvarado: Yeah. That and like the things like outside of work mar what you're saying, they give you life.

Yeah. Say if you're a morning workout kind of person and work's been crazy the past three months and you haven't gotten a single workout in, you're gonna be closer to burnout than if you were having your personal routine together.

Marissa Jennings : Completely, and nobody can define that for you. I say this to people too. Yeah. Everyone has different thresholds. Things that give people energy, take things away from other people. So it's really everyone's own individual decisions and what they want and what they want their life to look like. That can help direct that burnout pattern.

But no one's gonna come to save you. So what does that look like for yourself? 

Andres Alvarado: Yeah. And in my experience, the only way to know where my threshold is to hit it. 

Marissa Jennings : Yeah, that's fair. 

Andres Alvarado: I Think all of us, most of us.

You can identify a sign that leads you up to that so you don't hit it again.

So you get close, but you don't hit it. 

Marissa Jennings : Completely. I agree with that a hundred percent. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: And then what I love about the millennials is you'll actually do something about it. I think as Gen Xers we often we just keep hitting the wall 'cause it's all we know how to do. Like we just gotta keep pushing through it, and you all actually say, no, let's stop, let's take care of ourselves. And I think you've really helped teach other generations that in a very good way. So we can't fail to talk about technology while we have two millennials on the show. So how has living through the analog to digital transition shaped how you communicate or build relationships?

Andres Alvarado: How technology shaped how I communicate. It's funny because whenever I started working I was told to never text a client, never text anybody.

Always a phone call or an email. Keep it professional. And, I got my first cell phone when I was like in eighth grade. Of course just texting all the time. I send a quick message, probably don't say hi, good morning or space it correctly, or say, thank you, and then put my name at the end of a text.

But text has for sure been something that as I've grown in my career, most people say just text me. Oh, okay. All right. So I guess I'll text you and we'll organize when to do lunch or something, but it's changed.

Email is a great tool. You can pump out a lot of communications in a very short period of time. But also if you have a tough conversation or if you actually want to meet the person on the other side, you just have to call 'em. You call the person and you'll get a quicker response 99% of the time.

Especially whenever I was, first coming into my professional career, calling people was nerve wracking. And sending an email was much easier. But that's something where I feel like, and we have, we have conversations with team members as well too. Have you called them?

No, I sent them three emails just call 'em just give them, just give 'em one call and see what happens. It's something, email is a tool and ChatGPT is a great tool to help you out on email if you need. But it could be a slippery slope if technology gets way too in the communication and people don't learn how to communicate effectively with each other directly.

And if you're one person through email and you're a completely different person in your everyday life, then I don't think the outcomes will be favorable in the long run. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: So good. 

Marissa Jennings : Yeah. And for me, so I've seen technology change. When I first started right outta school in a corporate setting, they still were giving out blackberries, which is strange to think about, so that does date me a bit. And that's evolved over the years. I think technology's a great thing. I, still stand by that. I think there are so many efficiency plays. It allows people to work in a lot of different areas of the world and still be connected and get things done. To Andres's point though too, I think there's a little bit of communication and just lack of skill development with some kids coming outta school now, as they're going into the workforce.

To build authentic relationships. What does that look like? A lot of that has to be sometimes in person or communication via phone, and that's an avenue that they're not really that comfortable with. So then that's really merging the various different generations within the workforce. But again, I'm probably not your super adapter to a lot of new technology just being completely transparent.

But I think if as long as people have a growth mindset to constantly learn, it's changing so quickly. If you're not getting on board with AI tools and resources, people are building businesses quicker. It's rapidly changing, which is exciting. If you get excited by change, a lot of people don't.

That would scary for some, I think it's, it goes back to you just have to keep learning. 

Andres Alvarado: Yep. Agreed. Everyone's jumping on the AI train and we'll see what investment, or we see what tools will be worthwhile and, five to 10 years from now. But you can't not look or can't not try and see how it can make you better.

'cause if you don't, then all your competitors will and you'll be three to five years behind the curve whenever that all comes to a head. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Yep. And you all have lived through those kind of things before. So AI's like this next wave of, okay, how do we ride this? Like you said, what's gonna happen in three to five years?

How much do I dip my toe in now? I think the millennials are used to that. 

Marissa Jennings : And it's not going away. That's the other thing. Like it either, I don't think anyone's gonna have a choice whether or not they wanna buy into this next phase of ai. It's here, it's moving quick, it's moving very fast.

The job market will look completely different in the next even two to three years, yeah. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Yep. Yeah, it's crazy. Okay. There's five generations in the workforce right now. And so what do you wish older generations understood about the millennials?

Andres Alvarado: From my perspective, I think they know us pretty well by now. The traditionalists honestly very little connectivity that I have with traditionalists at this point. All of my grandparents have passed away. And the boomers really the older generation and N Gen X that I spend the most time with.

But as far as having, friends who are Gen Xers and mentors who are boomers and coworkers who are boomers. I don't think there's anything that they don't already know about us, and it might be something that they don't like or that they like, but yeah, it's, interesting to think about that we're not the new generation coming to the workforce and that was the whole thing whenever we were coming in.

So I think the Gen Zs may need to leave some notes for us about what we want to know about them.

Marissa Jennings : Yeah, I'm struggling with this one. Katherine. The one thing that stuck out in my mind when you said that is when you did your opening that millennials are tagged as lazy. And one thing I have found in the workforce is laziness is not a generational problem.

It spans across a variety of different generations. So I think like tagging, that is not a fair comment. There are some really extremely hard workers that I have met in all generations, and I'm always like blown away by that. So I think it's more of the person and who you are versus a generational thing.

The laziness piece. But in terms of what I would want them to know. I would say the ask would just to be kind. I think millennials tend to be dreamers at times, like this whole self-development piece. And I think that can be annoying to, others at times. And I think, no one has it quite figured out, so I think all of us are trying to inch closer to whatever that may look like for each of us.

So approach it with some kindness. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: And then what do you want, the younger generations like Gen Z and even Gen Alpha, they're coming up pretty quick. What do you want them to understand about your experience? What are your millennial nuggets of wisdom that you would pass on to the younger generations?

Andres Alvarado: From my perspective, it would be to ask questions. No one expects when you come into the workforce that you know everything. If you don't ask questions, then you're just gonna be setting yourself up for failure in the long run, because then someone's gonna say, what the heck? How do you not know what this is?

You've been here for two years, and there's a 100% okay duration where you can ask whatever heck question you wanna ask and, to know about the millennials talk to the millennials. From my perspective, anybody who comes on the team, I want them to succeed and for them to do well.

Sometimes I'm not sure if there's trust built there or sometimes communication isn't there. But, I would urge the Gen Zs come into the workforce to, exactly find like what we were talking about before find someone who you can relate with on a personal and professional level, and hitch your wagon to them and build a relationship and.

Just listen and ask questions. Be a sponge. There's no expectation that you'll come in and change the world respectfully in your entry level job. Just learn and take it day by day. 

Marissa Jennings : I love that. That's great. My advice would not be necessarily leadership focused, but what I would say to some of the younger generations is a lot of this is fake.

So what they're absorbing these days is not even real content online is all AI generated. It just, it blows me away. And it's stuff that like, we didn't get exposure to growing up. And so I'm seeing this with like my younger nieces and stuff too, where they're just, you're getting so much sent to you, you're consuming so much, and it's really hard to filter through what is actually real, did someone actually make this video?

Is this AI? I just feel like reality's becoming a really hard thing to understand for some of the younger generations. And I think that's kinda scary. I don't know. It's almost get outside, spend time in person with your friends, just do something that's like actual physical in real life than just behind the screens and just consuming a lot of the stuff that half the time you can't even tell who made it or what it is or if it's even real.

Andres Alvarado: And on that, Marissa, I use LinkedIn. We use LinkedIn as a business, but LinkedIn can be a very weird place, honestly. There's a lot of content on there, which may be good. There's a lot of advice on there, which may be horrible. Just because, someone has a nice setup doesn't mean that they are the recruiting expert that should tell you how to strategize an interview.

That's one thing that I see as a potential concern. Just because it's LinkedIn doesn't mean it's good information. It's social media, just like anything else. Yeah. That's one, one thing and one concern. See some things like, three signs and then you should quit your job.

Or just like a bunch of things. Stuff. Junk. You just get junk. Yeah, exactly. If you're in a toxic environment then yes, you probably need to leave. But the person who's making that video, they don't have strings attached If you quit your job and you can't find your next job in three months and six months, there's just a lot of information out there that I would caution for Gen Alpha or Gen Z to dive into and see as truth without fully diving into it.

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. So really like spending time in the real world, away from a screen, building relationships and then in that increasing your ability to discern what is real. 'cause the more you spend time in reality, the more you're gonna understand the difference between something that is fake versus something that is real and true.

Marissa Jennings : And I just think some of the generations now coming up, I feel bad. It's hard for all of us to to like filter through some of this stuff, so they're just getting so much thrown at them, especially in those teenage years.

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: That's the tender age right now, where they're experiencing a huge shift. 

Marissa Jennings : So there's a lot of crap out there for kids. 

Dr. Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. And then parents have to work really hard to keep up with that. To be aware of what's being said.

Yeah. All right. You two are amazing. Like truly. Thank you. You've had such incredible insights.

As we close this conversation, a few things stand out. Like millennials were shaped by both optimism, but also disruption, and they value purpose, but they're also seeking stability.

Something that feels good to be part of, and they ask for clarity because many of them enter the workforce during chaos or, Andres perspective, right? Chaos came pretty quickly once he entered the workforce. And they seek relationships because trust is what steadys the pace of constant change. So if I have these trusting mentors, people in my life who I know I can turn to, that helps me get through all of these shifts that I've experienced in my fairly young life, and this mirrors the GenShift framework about clarity, flexibility in relationship.

Millennials aren't asking for anything unreasonable. They're responding to the world that actually formed them. And before we end, I just wanna toss out a few reflection questions for our audience. The first one is, what assumptions about millennials might you need to rethink?

And by the way, millennials are now 45 years old. And how does your organization support clarity, flexibility, and relationship for this millennial generation? And what might shift if you saw millennial expectations, not as demands, but as adaptive responses to a changing world. Thank you for joining us today, and if you want to hear more generational stories, check out other GenShift episodes and share this one with someone who would really appreciate a deeper look at the millennial experience.