Episode 5: Handshakes & Hyperlinks: When a Traditionalist Meets Gen Z

GenShift Transcript: Episode 5—Gen Z & Traditionalists 
Katherine Jeffery: Welcome to the GenShift where our mission is to explore work, life, and leadership across the generations.

I'm Katherine Jeffery, a generational strategist who works with organizations to build empathy and intentional collaboration across the generations. If you are joining us today, then you know that these conversations really matter in today's rapidly shifting world. Today's conversation brings together two of the most distant generations in the workforce, Traditionalists and Gen Z.

Both generations grew up in dramatically different worlds, but both hold deep values around work purpose and contribution. The goal today is to uncover what divides them, find out what connects them, and what we can all learn from their interactions. We'll get to listen in on an honest conversation between Dave, who is a Traditionalist and was on one of our former podcasts.

We're really excited to have him back. And Isabelle, who is a part of Generation Z. We will get to hear reflections on values, motivation, and workplace expectations. We also get to have an insider's look at the wisdom that can emerge when we slow down to listen across the generational divide.

 Who are the traditionalists? They were born before 1946. They were shaped by the Great Depression World War II and the post-war boom. Some of their values include loyalty, discipline, sacrifice, and duty. And this generation often stayed with one employer for life. Some of their strengths include experience, reliability, and institutional memory.

Some of the common stereotypes around traditionalists are that they're resistant to change or stuck in the past, and I think you'll find today that Dave certainly breaks all those stereotypes.

Who is Gen Z? They were born between 1996 and 2012. They were shaped by smartphones, social media, school lockdown drills, political polarization, and global crises.

Some of their values include authenticity, mental health, inclusivity, and transparency. When it comes to work, they're often seeking purpose, growth, and flexibility. Some of their strengths are their incredible tech fluency, their social consciousness, and their adaptability. Some of the common stereotypes that Gen Z faces is that they're entitled, unrealistic or fragile.

And I'm sure you're gonna find that Isabelle will break all these stereotypes for us today. So why are we talking about this right now? Because traditionalists are still active in mentoring, consulting, and volunteering, and Gen Z is entering the workforce with strong values and new expectations. And cross generational friction is rising.

But so is the opportunity for wisdom sharing this episode models what respectful curiosity, patience, and engagement across age lines can look like. .

 So Dave and Isabel, welcome to the show. We're so excited to have both of you here. Why don't you first just introduce yourselves, tell us a little about who you are. 

Isabelle Patterson: Hi, I'm Isabel Patterson. I'm the product manager at Lentus, and I met Dave through Vistage. It's been three years ago now. I started with Lentus one month in, and I started Vistage right after.

So that's been super fun and he is been with me along the journey and in my growth. dave, do you wanna go? 

David Zerfoss: My life has been interesting possibly because longer, which is a good thing by the way. My life started out just in the setting that Katherine shared about Traditionalist.

By luck and by fortune was blessed to end up as a CEO of Husqvarna was outdoor power equipment company and responsible for North America. It was pretty amazing from the background that I came, and it was highly unlikely to me if you would've asked me back then. And with that is I told folks that after spending 18 and a half years at the helm as a president, CEO was I was not going to retire.

I graduated. And so I graduated and was asked to be a Vistage chair, which was very formative in my time and my life as a leader. told him, I said I'd start one group and now I've got five groups. Which is exciting that, my heart is just so happy when we work with Isabelle and her group of key executives and they're growing and how they're achieving.

And it just makes my heart beyond happy and it's on my purpose of unleashing exponential growth. I learned so much from Isabelle and her peers. 

Katherine Jeffery: For those of you who may not know, our two guests today are both involved in an organization called Vistage. Vistage is a global executive peer advisory organization for CEOs and senior leaders. As a speaker, I've had the privilege of working with Vistage groups across the world, helping leaders navigate generational shifts and build stronger, more connected teams.

And Dave and Isabel are an example today of the profound relationships and connections that people make when they're part of Vistage. What have each of you gained from that experience?

Isabelle Patterson: As Dave mentioned, he has a ton of experience. And our industry is different, but similar at the same time, Lentus we're the master distributor for Dow. So they're different, but they have similarities and parallels. And as you find in Vistage, every company in some way has parallels. But he has provided a ton of experience.

Great insights. It is interesting because I actually work with my grandfather, who's also a Traditionalist. I get the opportunity of doing that. That's right. So sometimes I feel like Dave gives the same advice as him, which sometimes makes me happy, but sometimes I'm like, okay, I hear that already, but thank you Dave.

But I think that just in general, hearing all the perspectives, I think whenever we did our Vistage session with Katherine, we had someone of each generation present which you see the contrast in learning why maybe they might have that perspective or might have that viewpoint.

Which has been great and super helpful for me, especially as a Gen Z trying to navigate the workplace. So it's been awesome. 

David Zerfoss: Really blessed to work with our key executives. And as Isabel mentioned, there's a broad range of generations there. However, is that are having our Gen Zs there is a special gift.

And Isabelle comes in the room with a desire to learn and grow and a extraordinary humbleness inside that, but also a presence inside that humbleness. Which is a great combination that doesn't generally show up in folks, quite frankly. Just to see her openness and where she is from and where she's going to and preparing herself, plus the company and the family pr preparing her for an extraordinary future.

And they got an extraordinary leader to go there, I can tell you because it really shows up and as I said, a great deal of humility without entitlement. And entitlement's, one of the worst things you can run into in others and organizations and people. And and she shares just openly and frankly, and that's the way you learn and way you grow.

It is just a blessing to work with her and those around her with that kind of an approach and attitude. 

Katherine Jeffery: Excellent. All right, Dave, I wanna start with you on this. And then Isabelle, I want you to follow up 'cause the world has changed so much. So Dave, when you first entered the workforce, what was your idea of a good job?

David Zerfoss: Gee, whi some of it goes back to what I shared when both when you were working with our CEOs and our key executives, et cetera. But with the background I had is growing up from parents that came through the depression and suffered their way through that. I grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere in western Pennsylvania.

And went to a one room schoolhouse for five years. And as I proudly say, I did not repeat the same grade. So it was a very different world. Quite frankly, the aspiration then was farm life is tough and especially then we did not have all the new gadgets.

All the inventions, but the work was still there. With that aspect of it is I was highly motivated to get off the farm. I look back, I learned a lot of lessons and to this day, I share those like grandfathers do, Isabel. That's just the way we are. But probably an aspiration at that time was, the two highest paying job was whether you go to work in a coal mine or a steel mill.

Both of those were really hard lives by the way. But it was hard to get into it because sort of family generation of employees passed it on the sons and daughters at least as recommending them to work for whether the companies are. So it was really hard to even break in if you wanted to.

Neither of those attracted me, but that was the aspiration. So as it evolved, everything was new to me because it was just a different world. But my aspiration was to do something different better. But I really didn't totally understand that, and I shouldn't say that what our key executives are.

You're supposed to really have your mind set and understand those things. But I was blessed and things evolved, et cetera. When I did go to college, which both my brother and I were the first generations of folks to go to college, by the way. Fortunately he was much smarter than Dave.

So I had a model to work with. It didn't call it English, and it was communications in college at that point. And the first book to read was the Man in the Gray Flannel suit. And oh, this is a business thing.

Okay. For folks that might have been a turnoff today, but for me was, these people drive nice cars and they seem to live a better life than I did on the farm. And I said, Hey, I think this might be interesting. Long story short, that's where I ended up today.

Katherine Jeffery: Excellent. Isabel, how about you? 

Isabelle ​​Patterson: So interestingly enough, I started out in the workplace in 2020. So my last interview with the position that I ended up accepting was on the day the world shut down. I walked into my interview and it was in uptown Charlotte, but every other time that I went, like we shook hands.

Did all of the normal things and they were like, no touching hands, but we're gonna proceed with the interview because we really didn't know. It was literally the first day. So I remember the next day, school shut down. I was in college still and I was driving. I got a call to accept the offer. I accepted the offer called my mom.

'cause I was so excited. We also had no idea what was to come from COVID or what was gonna happen in the workplace for sure. So I accepted the offer, called my mom, and she said you'll probably get fired before you start because who knows or get furloughed. Because we don't know if anyone's gonna be really adding headcount right now.

She's very realistic. So of course I'm like, oh, thank you. I just accepted this. We're so excited. But she's there's a good chance that this could go away. Especially because it was for a recruiting company. So she's who's gonna be hiring right now?

But I would say going into looking for my, especially my first position, 'cause now I work for my family's company, so whenever I was in the interview process, I guess I wasn't exactly looking for these things, but I grew up around it.

So I knew that it had these things. I would say healthy culture, stability and a path for advancement and title and responsibilities. Those were my big things that I was looking for. And opportunities in that for growth, for learning. Those were huge things for me whenever I was looking for my job.

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. So for Dave, you were really looking in some ways you're looking for the same thing, but it looks a little different. Dave's looking for quality of life, but it's an easier life than a farm or a steel mill, and you're looking for healthy culture ways to advance, right? So you still want something that is good for you, right?

And good for your overall wellbeing, but the way the world operated in those two times offered you two very different tracks. So what really influenced the work ethic that you're bringing into your job currently?

David Zerfoss: I believe that growing up the farm, as I said, it taught me a lot of lessons and discipline of whether it was care and feeding of livestock. And that happened 365 days a year, seven days a week. And especially in the dairy side of the business the cows are milked in the morning and the evening.

They don't care how you feel. They don't care whether it's five below or it is 105. It just is that is the work that you do. And folks often would kid and said, Dave, you're a workaholic. When I was a CEO and I said, is this is really easy compared to working on a farm. So it did it did teach me some very specific habits, but I think is again, that cultural background.

Interesting enough, I was sharing it who Dave was with a group of the Metro Line of Business Council.

It was about 40 leaders in the room businesses, et cetera. And I said, some of the things, it just was reflective in chatting with them so they would know who was in the room besides a hopefully a glossy bio. But then you gotta speak. And I was just sharing with them and actually thinking about this coming up.

And the conversation is that, when I grew up, it was the love of the church. It was a love of school. It was a love of your country. It was the patriotism. When we went to school, besides your chores that you had, everybody had an assignment in the one room schoolhouse. It was the Pledge of Allegiance. It was a Lord's Prayer, and this was the world that at responsibility that we grew up in.

Probably if you had asked me when I was Isabelle's age, I would not have even been able to reflect on that because it was just boy, I trudged through that and here I am today. But they were so formative in work ethic. Also though I have to be an eternal student of all generations. When you're CEO, you're taught that. I had to figure that out before I had expert advice from Katherine.

But as I'm always studying things and just saw a very recent article in Wall Street Journal on the characteristics that companies are looking for and the Gen Z workforce. Interesting enough, which I think they bring incredible gifts into the the workforce, but if I look at the value alignment, Isabelle is in the two percenter of the Gen Zs because she's looking for achievement and growth, et cetera. And at least by their study, which I guess you gotta always look at the data. That's not necessarily their particular values.

That's not about good or bad at any point in time. It's understanding because as a leader, you gotta meet people where they're at. It doesn't mean you gotta leave them where they're at, but if you don't meet them where they're at, you really can't have any bonding or conversation with them. And so as you chatted with us and guide us and directed us in our Vistage groups as CEOs and key members, it was just interesting as I reflect the things that you stated Isabelle and her peers shared, et cetera, that how much a traditionalist had more in common, I think, with the Gen Z than we do with the other groups, quite frankly.

It's very interesting. 

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah, that was fascinating and I think we'll hit on some of that today too. So Isabel, Dave, it's like he grew up, it's 365 days a year. It doesn't matter what the weather is. You're out there, you're working. How has your work ethic been shaped? 

Isabelle Patterson: I grew up in a family.

Like I said, my grandpa, he still works. He's in his eighties and he works every single day. Both my parents worked. I was surrounded by just constant business interactions growing up. And my parents always provided us the necessities, obviously, but anything past that was on us to provide for ourselves.

So I got my first job at 16. I could not wait to get a job so I could start buying my own clothes 'cause I love fashion, all the things. Had a job all through college. So I feel like I always just had this mentality of this is my baseline. If I want anything past that, I'm gonna have to work for it.

And I think it really set me up for success looking forward to, and just what that meant. Now working, I appreciate it so much. I see how much it does for me and I really take value in my job. I've learned that from a very young age.

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. So you learned you had to work for things.

They weren't all just given to you, and that really impacted Yeah. 

Isabelle Patterson: Yes. 

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. And it sounds like that's kinda your family culture. 

Isabelle Patterson: Yes. Yes. For sure. 

Katherine Jeffery: So let's talk about technology for a little bit. Isabelle, let's start with you. How does technology impact the way you connect with your colleagues? 

Isabelle Patterson: I work remotely, so I feel like I have a little bit of a different perspective 'cause it's the only way I can connect with them every single day unless I'm in the office which my grandfather would like me to be in every single day.

Actually I've never worked in person. I have only ever worked through computer because I started in 2020. And then I moved on to this job. I travel for work a lot, so I do have a lot of face-to-face interactions as well. Whenever we go on sales calls and such, or work trade shows.

But my day to day typically is. Through a computer. I am a little different in my generation though, 'cause I do prefer a phone call over a text. I know that's weird for a Gen Z. But I would rather not teams chat or text. I would rather you give me a phone call. So that is different.

But I use it, 24 7. 

Katherine Jeffery: I did read a stat recently. It said over 50% of Gen Zs actually prefer face-to-face because they realize that so much can get lost when you're IMing or texting. But face-to-face for Gen Z doesn't always mean I have to be in person. Can mean what we're that's 

Isabelle Patterson: face.

Yeah. 

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. Now, Dave, how has technology changed the way you connect with colleagues and how do you even feel about all the technology that's in front of us today? 

David Zerfoss: I'm really very excited about the technology that continues to evolve and always try to use technology in leadership.

And now there's also, some aspects of it that can be concerning. But I think every generation had something that was concerning about the new generation and technology. If you don't stay relevant you'll be disintermediated by this world.

And it's moving at a faster quicker pace. I look back in life and the, the way you communicate was in person, either in school or you spoke in front of a group at church, or you had that perspective. My dad's side of the family was a large family.

There was 12 brothers and sisters, and there was only three on my mother's side, but they all communicated by these beautiful letters that I still have some of it which is, I believe is a lost art. How, here was the weather and here's, we know we're getting ready to harvest the wheat or here was in the garden and I was canning, as I looked through my mom's letters, et cetera.

It always taught. That was a very personal touch to be able to articulate. Then came the phone. Boy, that was exciting, that it is way back, Isabel. And we had what we call a party line phone, which means is you had about 10 neighbors on your phone and you're always wishing somebody listening on that.

Or you would just say Hey, Mabel, get off, put it off the line. But it continues to evolve. And then obviously the phone became even more personal, but for a long time it was always landlines. Big breakthrough was fax machines. But before that there wasn't a digital world. You learn to communicate by speaking in front of groups, et cetera, but you also learn to use the phone, which I do believe is certainly more personal than texts, but you use those too because my kids they're not gonna generally pick up the phone or especially my grandkids.

And of course they always say how much we love your granddad. Part of my granddaddy, the other one are papa. It's, I got the split family personality. But then we evolved into voicemail used that prolifically for uniting the company and spreading a message.

Matter of fact, they had a quote from Dave every day and on their voicemail, as we grew hundreds of thousands of folks working on our teams. Because it is essential that you're constantly as a leader painting the picture. And what do you have to do that with? And and today, obviously when Zoom and it just interesting, Isabel, as you share, is when you went into the workplace.

I can remember Barbara and I were driving to set up for a Vistage meeting, and the news had just happened. And that weekend before we got a cram course on Zoom from a good friend who was a consultant for a number of years that was teaching us, how do you do this? And we're there and we're saying, how's it gonna work?

Okay. And then we turn computer faces around, we learned and then obviously we employ a lot today. And it's interesting that there were folks that, on one-to-ones, which we do with our individual members, our CEOs, is that it, when they first talked about is we're gonna be a hundred percent in person if we're not personally don't want to do it.

Now, some of the people just said that the stated that we still, I still have a few, that's just the way it is. No matter what now is I'm connecting with them and all they say, oh, we don't need, we'll just do it zoom and they're at their beach house or their mountain house, or they're traveling somewhere around the world.

So it continues to evolve, but that's a necessity. And where AI goes, we have to be a student of this of what works, what doesn't work. And if we're not, you become irrelevant really quickly. 

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. I wanna ask both of you, from a generational perspective, how do you view AI and even just Chat GBT alone?

What are your thoughts on that? 

Isabelle Patterson: I think it's great. I think you learn a lot from it. I do think you can tell when something is generated by Chat GPT, especially if you know the person who's emailing you or creating presentation or something like that. I think you can tell what is their words and what is Chat GPT. I utilize it all the time. If anything, you can have a full conversation and get another opinion on something, which is crazy. I do feel like I still need to learn. I don't think I utilize it to its fullest capabilities. That's something that I feel like generation, is it alpha and beta?

Who are the, they're gonna be leaps and bounds ahead of all of us 'cause they're gonna grow up with that. But it is something that I think is, it's a super valuable tool's. Just crazy, honestly. Yeah. 

Katherine Jeffery: And how fast it's coming at us. I know. 

Isabelle Patterson: I was at a business dinner and someone took a picture of what they were eating and then they took a picture of the wine list and they said, pick which wine would taste the best with my food at this price point.

And it spit out three answers. It's crazy. I'm like, the ways you can utilize it and you don't even think about it is nuts, but super helpful. 

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah, we'll probably integrate it a lot more into things, right? We have to learn all those smaller things that we might not associate AI with.

Isabelle ​​Patterson: Yeah, I would never even think about that.

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. Dave, what about you from a Traditionalist perspective? 

David Zerfoss: Traditionalist and I don't know whether I'm a traditional Traditionalist because I have folks of my generation is that new fangled stuff, I'm not gonna adopt it. But no, I think it's absolutely amazing technology.

We've been moving forward because AI has actually been happening for longer than we think this thing happened last week. Whether we're gonna get the singularity and how fast we're gonna do is when machines run us instead of us running the machines.

I don't know that's, that can be a great debate, but the aspect of it is I think there's incredible applications of it that folks are gonna become more efficient, more effective. A skilled worker level, is gonna be a new level of how do they harness that? I think some of the perspectives, and one of 'em Isabel shared is as humans, we still can pick up. It's amazing. Those are nuances almost sometimes as the more sophisticated AI, but you still pick it up.

Barbara is writing a sequel to her novel is in the process and she's just discussing that because everybody's, we'll just put what your notes are into AI.

And she refuses to do that. That's the, that's unique skills and talents of a great writer. But talking to the publishers and she was talking back and forth with them is that they notice it. They can tell very quickly. What this is, even though it just, sounds right, et cetera.

I think we can select that. Obviously it'll get slightly better. So it's not to stop the the march of technology. But there's also a concerning factor 'cause I try to be a student of these things. Maybe not the best student, but there's a condition called brain rot setting in, isn't that a great term that, in matter of months in, steady use of it, there is a significant drop in the ability to recall. And then there's also a significant drop. And this is really happening in months and it's significant. It's not like 2% or 5%, it's like 25, 30% or more. The folks lose in critical thinking skills because someone else is thinking for us.

And that's my biggest concern, is we as human beings, I believe we're blessed with the most incredible AI chips in our head that you could ever imagine. We have trillions of connections in different ways. There's only gonna be one of us ever with the gifts and talents and understanding and the connections that we have.

It is gonna be important that we continue to think because when you let other people think for you or you, let technology simply think for you, you stop thinking. When you stop thinking, you stop growing. When you stop growing, you stop leading.

And so okay.

How do we harness this because it is such a powerful tool. And Isabelle in our folder of information next week you'll see an article we printed off on Walmart and where they're all using AI in incredible vast areas. So it's there. And, but the aspect of it is how do we harness it?

How do we use it? And how do we keep thinking as human beings? 

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. That's really well said Dave. And I've heard some Gen Zers, Isabel, I don't know about you, but some of 'em are like, I don't like AI. They're afraid of the very thing Dave is talking about in terms of not being able to critically think, because, it's human nature.

This is much easier to do it this way and it takes more effort to put time into, like Barbara writing that book. Barbara, by the way, is Dave's amazing wife. But like her writing that book, right? She's refusing to do that 'cause she wants to use her own ability. So, do you have thoughts on that, Isabelle?

Isabelle Patterson: Yeah, I think another thing too is just you want to contribute value to the company that you're working for and in your job. And for me it feels inauthentic to provide that value via something that isn't even my brain. It's that it feels very, like, why am I here if I am just gathering this information from somewhere else?

Yeah. And I know that Dave, he has years and years of experience prior to the adoption of this, but we're still very early in our careers, so a little fearful of how do you continue to create this value if there's this technology that can provide the same information that you can.

Having your own thoughts is very important and continue to critically think like what Dave was saying. 

Katherine Jeffery: So good. So good. Okay. So in some ways this kind of builds on that, but think about how do each of you view leadership in today's world and what actually makes someone worth following?

Isabelle ​​Patterson: I think for me, for a leader to be worth following is one that I don't know, this is a hard question, but a leader who's almost been through a similar path as you have in growth. I'm a big advocate of, you've been in my shoes before.

You've been through this process. You've learned through what I've learned through, and I can respect that 'cause you can give me experience from what you've learned while you were in my position. Yeah, I think I need to like, think on it a little bit more. Maybe whenever Dave responds, it'll help me back.

But that is like my first gut reaction is probably that, I feel like that's a loaded question.

Katherine Jeffery: All right. Let's let Dave unpack it, then we'll come back to you. 

David Zerfoss: Yeah, I was since I talk about this a lot, I did not want to taint Isabelle's initial thoughts because we could probably take the next hour and days inside a conversation. Not because I know that much, but there's just the time and experience inside of it.

But I shared in I think our first conversation and the first podcast we worked together on was I do take leadership as a sacred responsibility. I believe that intensely and that takes as one of great responsibility. And so maybe that's a Traditionalist or not, or it's somebody that just cares as a leader.

And I don't think that is just unique to one generation, maybe more prevalent in some of the background. But as our role as leaders are, is it's imperative that our first job is to equip our folks that sign on with us, whether we want to call 'em followers. I always refer to our folks as associates, no matter where they were in our company, whether that was in manufacturing, whether that was in distribution, or it was in the C-suite.

They were my associates. And I do believe in servant leadership. You have to demonstrate that I believe to have a level of authenticity. But in that equipping folks, we believe that equip them for character. We need to equip them from competency and capacity for them to learn and to grow because it's they would like to be around a real long time.

But there's reality. We need the Isabel's and post folks of her age to come forward and do this. So our job is to equip them for the future because your folks that follow. You can go nowhere and farther in the future than where they see you standing.

And so you gotta have clarity about that. How do you move there? And it's I think it's John Maxwell quote also is when there's no hope in the future, there's no power in the present. And I really think it's important to share with all my members and we think we're talking about Gen Z, is there is hope in the future.

When I think through the things that we went through in life and we didn't think there was hope because there's new either newfangled stuff or circumstances, and we got a call forward that hope, by showing a plan, equipping them. Developing them and sharing with them in a way they can grow and be far more powerful than where I went.

They need to be able to go farther. And I think there's some type of parable story about if you really plan to go far and go somewhere and you want to know how to get there, ask the people who've already been there when they're on their journey back from there. I'm constantly asking that question and constantly learning.

When you stop learning, you stop growing and. As said, you stop growing, you stop leading. And really it's essential is what we bring in authenticity. Folks need, as I said, and I think it's a Simon cine, but I've seen it at every kind, everything. There's nothing new under the sun in Ecclesiastes.

It highlights it. And guess what? There isn't. So sometimes I even forget where I get that thought from. But people need purpose, meaning, and direction. I haven't seen that change from one generation to another. However, I know in my generation we had morals, discipline, all those things that went with it.

But we were more likely to say, okay, if the order came down, unless it was some horrendous thing morally wrong, inside of principles, is you did it. And people say the, all these younger folks, they just don't care. They do. And they're incredibly responsible.

We need to prepare and give them the avenue to be able to express that in a powerful way. People need purpose, meaning direction. That's our responsibility to provide that to others and to develop 'em. And as I would tell folks in our company, even though we grew at extraordinary levels and because I hired great people, as I always tell our folks, always be recruiting.

Isabelle wouldn't stood a chance if I was competing because I would recruiter no matter what. She's an extraordinary, as I said, is, my most modern thing is Star Wars, so that tells you how old I am. But the force is strong with this one. Yes. And you look for that, but that's our responsibility to create environment where they can grow and be responsible and pour in that learning.

That's who we are for our time and the journey in this world. 

Katherine Jeffery: That's beautiful. Isabelle, you wanna build on that? 

Isabelle Patterson: Yeah. Obviously Dave teaches us every day, so he's very good at explaining. I'll piggyback on the ability to provide purpose, meaning, and direction. And also just maintaining a growth mindset as a leader, I think is really important.

So being able to adapt and continue to have that growth mindset is super important as well. 

Katherine Jeffery: And so when you work for somebody, what makes even Dave worth following? What is it about Dave that you're like, I wanna learn from this guy?

Isabelle Patterson: He is a wealth of knowledge through his years of being a CEO. Clearly very well read. Look at his background. He has lots of experience and I think that he clearly shows that growth mindset. He's always learning, he's always willing to listen to someone who maybe has a different perspective than he does and build on that, or go against it if he feels otherwise.

But I think that builds your credibility but also can potentially help you grow your beliefs or how you might think about something. So he's great. He's a very active listener always as well. He's very easy to follow, that's for sure. 

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. And he is not afraid to challenge you, it sounds like, but he's also very open to learning from you.

It's not just here's how it really is, Isabelle, and you just need to get it right. He's also hearing your perspective and you're growing together. Yes, for sure. 

David Zerfoss: But I think Katherine is really interesting now, this the ability to be open to learning and growing which Isabelle absolutely exhibits extraordinarily well is how important it is that it's just the changeover of leadership in organizations, companies, corporations.

That's occurring at a, like a tsunami change is that the baby boomers the former larger group of folks are in the 20 21, 20 20, 20 23 all these baby boomers were aging out and selling their companies and at the right time with the, all the private equity money in it, they did extraordinarily well, but they were moving out one way or another.

But they also started to get, fatigued too. Not only by age and time, but COVID and stuff create a whole new paradigms. How do we deal with extraordinary stuff? Then is in the last several years, the remainder of those have retired either voluntarily or voluntold, as I tell folks.

But I found it interesting in just doing some research, is it currently, is that. In each of the generations that there are CEOs that are getting disintermediate or just quitting early. In other words, they have this two to three year span, especially in the CEO world. Mine was 18 and a half, which was crazy.

But the the CEO world has always been about three years or so. But even the newer generations of leaders are turning in, so to speak. And I find it because they can't keep up with how fast the things we talked about in technology or is worn them out. So it's very interesting to see 'em getting worn out that quickly or throw, holding up the white flag and saying is somebody else.

And that's regardless of age. It's not age driven. Now it's just span of how long can you lead? And that's just the, incredible importance. We have to keep growing. And that's the thing I love about Gen Z is wow, they're there learning. 

Katherine Jeffery : They are, they're voracious learners. 

Isabelle Patterson: Yeah. 

Katherine Jeffery: And Isabel, maybe you can comment on that.

You all have grown up in a world that it's just rapidly changing. You have to learn or you pretty immediately become irrelevant.

Isabelle Patterson: Yes. For sure. Technology and culture are changing faster than ever and I think the ability to stay open and learn new things quickly is what is gonna help us stay resilient through all these quick changes. 'Cause right now I feel like it's not just about keeping up, it's about staying curious and using change as an opportunity for growth.

Katherine Jeffery: So well said. 

Generational differences show up everywhere in workplaces, classrooms, and even around the dinner table. Too often they lead to frustration instead of connection. That's why I created the GenShift dialogue deck with thoughtful questions for every generation traditionalist. Boomers, gen X millennials, gen Z and Gen Alpha.

It's a simple tool that helps groups move beyond stereotypes into meaningful conversations. It works with teams, students, and families alike, and the deck is just the beginning. As a generational strategist and leadership consultant, I work with organizations to turn generational differences into strengths.

Through keynote talks, workshops, and long-term consulting, I help leaders understand what drives each generation and how to bring out the best in all of them. When we learn to listen and lead across generations, teams are more innovative, inclusive, and effective. Discover the tools and training that build generational intelligence.

Explore the GenShift dialogue deck and my services@katherinejeffery.com. Start bridging the gap today.

All right. How do each of you measure success, both personally and professionally?

David Zerfoss: Success for me is being able to live on purpose. My life has blessed me in many ways. And the aspect of it is purpose is what drives me every day. And you don't have dollar signs on that. You can, there's different measurements that maybe you can make, but it really is.

Are you living a life worthwhile? Are you passing on to the next generations to help them to learn, grow, and prosper in a way that they change the future for the better? So I measure it each day. If I'm on purpose or not. My purpose is on unleashing exponential growth, which is really empowering leaders.

And when I'm doing that my heart is happy, I am energized. So I'm blessed to be able to do that every day. And that's really what I count the success is, have I made a difference in another person's life that is going to positively affect generations in the world to come?

Katherine Jeffery: Beautiful. Isabel, how about you? 

Isabelle Patterson: I would say that personally family success wise, I would say keeping God and family in the center of my life is key to success and emphasizing like what Dave was saying in terms of building generations, instilling those qualities and future generations. And I think that would make me feel very successful in life.

Professionally, I would say growth and learning every day. And not taking that for granted because I feel like keeping your mind growing and learning is what keeps your brain going and keeps you growing and feeling successful. 

Katherine Jeffery: So let's shift slightly. What frustrates each of you about how other generations approach work?

Isabelle Patterson: I would say, I have an example from, or it's not really a frustration, so maybe this isn't a great time to bring this example up, but we just went through a software implementation on the product side.

I was responsible for training our sales team and I had to think through how other generations would perceive or be able to learn through the material that I'd put together on this new software because it's really for our sales team.

So knowing myself, I grew up around technology, navigating new tools almost feels instinctive. But I realized that obviously not every generation learns that way. So I had to really slow it down. I had to add a lot of step by step guidance. And for me, I was like, okay, this seems silly, but for someone else, they might really need this.

So I created a lot of visuals and reference materials for those who potentially needed to learn that way. But I also understand that in order for, this innovation and this move forward within our team, everyone has to move forward together and everyone has to adapt to it and learn it. So it was an interesting experience and I definitely learned a lot about really how to meet people where they are and how to communicate to them in the best way.

Katherine Jeffery: And how did people receive that? All the effort you put into that?

Isabelle ​​Patterson: I sent them each home with a packet and I still am getting calls like, what does this, what does that do? But I think it was really helpful and I think it at least got them started. It's gonna be a process getting everyone fully ingrained in the new software.

However, I think that they at least really appreciated the initial effort to get them up and going. 

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. And you're at least showing them like what they need to pay attention to. The things that are Yeah, it's like this. Exactly. Yeah. That's excellent. Thank you.

Dave, what about you? 

David : It was great Isabel, that you went first. 'cause I was pondering my, my answer but to me is disingenuous people. I hate intellectual arrogance. I detest it in very, in fact, because there are people who think, they think, but they really don't think, and those kinds of things bother me.

But I always try to set up a litmus test in leadership is you want diversity of gender, diversity of race, diversity of generations. You want diversity of thinking that generates from that. But you don't want diversity of values because when the values are different, you no longer have a team, you just got a crowd with chaos.

And to me is when folks, as clearly as you can define what your purpose, vision, mission, and values are, and they shake their head yes. Then they act differently than that. That really will set me off . Because they're letting their teams down, there's a distinction between cooperation and collaboration. Cooperation is that you're civil, you're nice, but you're still, your primary thing is whether you complete your role and that if you have any spare time, you might help your teammates. Great teams collaborate as you point out, and you do a great matrix on that by the way Katherine. I smiled when you shared it with our groups and the aspect of it, collaborations, when the team become is more important. And that's when folks are acting outside of support for others, there's always others or things are gonna happen to 'em.

And our job as a team is to come alongside of 'em is important. I remember as we had Eric Frohart was a Navy Seal, and it was during COVID. He spoke because a lot of fear. There was so much, we forget how that was going. And in his question and answer period, they asked him about fear.

And during his presentation you'd see the stuff he, he went through. There was stuff blowing up everywhere. And he said, yeah, I was really afraid. I was afraid many times, but I was more afraid of letting my team down than I was for my personally. And those are the kind of folks that I looked for.

So when they don't act like that, I don't like it.

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. So maybe generations that might be more self-focused versus I wanna work well with everyone around me. It might be one of your frustrations. 

David Zerfoss: That's beyond a frustration. But I also, we try to say always the next generation, I just get to say it five times, but they just don't take that responsibility.

But I've just seen their responsible people in each generation. Yes. I take umbridge with the folks that rail on the Gen Zs or earlier generations. But it's that ability to support each other. But again, I guess some of that comes from being a Traditionalist .

yeah. It's, you want the common good, not the greater good 'cause when somebody says the greater good, it means that you take care of them. Yeah. Common good is when it's great for everybody. And that isn't common by the way. It's gotta be good for everybody regardless of belief sets and who they are, age, generation, whatever.

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. And you talked about that in the last podcast, how you grew up in a world where everybody looked out for everybody else, it didn't matter your social status, where you lived, any of that stuff. It was, we're all in this together and we're really trying to move forward to a better life for all of us.

David Zerfoss: I use the expression, everything was level at the foot of the cross. All of us were the same, maybe some little different economic standings. And maybe somebody had a job in the steel mills and they were driving a new car and we were driving an ancient car.

And you had one for family, by the way, but you grew up with this common purpose and it's something different than it is today. And it's hard to explain. It was maybe part of that silent generation. Part of it is that you had greater empathy and greater understanding, but you didn't take pictures of everything.

In other words, yeah. You were concerned if somebody had something to eat, not what were they were eating, so to speak. Everything now gonna take, here we are over here. And you would not want to do that because folks would be going through some very tough times.

And it was really a humbleness and quietness. But a responsibility that you would take care of 'em and maybe you would drop something off to food money or whatever. You would never leave a note, et cetera, other than if you wanted to say, Hey, we love you and wanted to take care of you, but it wasn't even that because you took care of folks and did not want the is Oh, how great you are.

Make sure you put that on the net. There was, of course, there wasn't one at that time, but you weren't looking at it to be recognized that you were helping others. Yes. Because that's what you did. You came alongside of 'em quietly and you did it and, you also didn't talk about other people's stuff.

You knew these things were going on and I guess what lives and life and death and divorces and marriages and stuff, maybe not quite as common on the marriage side of divorce, that stuff was still happening then. But you didn't go in and you didn't discuss it.

You did what you knew that you needed to do to help at that point. That was I guess the quiet support and I think true empathy. 

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. Which is very different. Isabelle, if you wanna comment on that, to your world where everything's public, it's all on social media, it's a very different world.

Isabelle ​​Patterson: For sure. I was just gonna say that I think that empathy is a lost art in today's world. It's really sad what our world's going through. And like Dave said, if you do anything good, it's posted on Facebook and you're looking for this public recognition that Dave's generation was not seeking one because there wasn't an internet to be posting that.

But also they were doing it for different motivations, I think, other than potentially motivations in today's world. So it's sad. It's a lost art for sure, but I think we can learn from that and hopefully bring that back because I think that is something that the world needs for sure. 

Katherine Jeffery: Do you have any thoughts on how you would bring that back as a Gen Zer?

Isabelle Patterson: I don't know. I think that the world in general, not even from just like an empathy perspective, but if we could just get off of posting everything about life online, I think we could do a lot better. Consumerism is crazy right now. I think that Americans and other cultures too, but strongly in America, we're losing the value of a dollar and just consuming.

Whereas in Dave's generation, they looked at money in a very different way. And I think in general, we could pull back from utilizing social media outlets and such. And I think that the world would change a bit and become less I don't know the word, but trying to seek this external validation. I don't know how I would change that. If I could, I would start that path , personally not posting things. I think that a lot of people recognize that. I guess we have a lot to work to do to figure out how to really change that mindset. 

Katherine Jeffery: I've also read some of the research says that Gen Z prefers not to have social media, but they have to have social media because if they don't, they'll be left out or disconnected.

So you all are actually in a tough spot. 'cause I think a lot of people might agree with you in your generation, but it's how do you get out of that so you still feel connected to your generation? 

Isabelle Patterson: Because that's how we stay connected is through that. Like even someone I haven't seen in six or seven years, I'm still seeing what they're posting. That is how I see what's going on in their life, congratulating them on what's going on in their life. In Dave's generation, that would be, or whenever he was growing up, writing a letter, explaining what's going on in their life and truly staying connected because now you have this almost like false sense of connection. Just because you're liking and commenting on something, congratulations.

It's a very different message than taking the time to write a handwritten letter and saying, this is what's going on in my life. And congratulations in response via letter. It's a very different sentiment and like level of appreciation and celebratory matters and such.

Katherine Jeffery: Good. So let's build on that. What do you each admire about another generation's approach to either the workplace or just to life in general?

David Zerfoss: I was just still pondering on your earlier question. Sometimes there's a slow release in Dave's brain, but the perspective of what Isabelle brings when you listen to her and her responses are but there is a faith basis inside of that.

And I just find it very interesting because that was mentioned a few times in the workshops you did with our folks. And it's also mentioned out there that there's that need. People have chased everything in generations and some more than others.

And I think it was the baby boomers that probably created some of the biggest tragedies that they passed on to generations some of their perspectives of life. But it's just interesting to see this faith, spirituality basis that Gen Z is craving more than the other generations. And I see that very visibly but I also think in that is also the answer of how that's going to show up for the next generation.

So what I'm encouraged for Isabel. Just keep being who you are and authentic, and you'll change the world by that. So I got off track thinking about that one. Katherine, remind me of what I need, because that was just so important and poignant to me as she shared.

Katherine Jeffery: Yes. Thank you, Dave. Yeah.

The question is, what do you admire most about another generation's approach to either the workplace or simply to life, which you were honestly answering. 

David Zerfoss: I thought it was close to the target. Yeah. I think Gen Z is also helping us inside because we were workers and we need to see life and I think a speaker that was earlier in the year and just talked about what was important in life, et cetera. And my generation was, you're being a provider, but what I like about the new generations and especially, and my children aren't so young anymore, by the way, but they spent a lot more time with their children than we did.

We can say there's different economic times, et cetera, but they, poured into that intentionally. If you look back and if there was a younger set, I would try to figure out how to do more of that. But when you graduate from school, you have no money.

You got three children and a fourth on the way. Hey, listen, like food, shelter inside of that. But the newer generations and younger, I think are showing that importance. And I think as long as it doesn't border on indulgence, I admire that about them.

That maybe they're getting a little more balance in that. 

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah, for sure. Isabelle, go ahead. 

Isabelle Patterson: I would say overall their values. Both sets of my grandparents who are in the traditionalist category, I would say that they both had their roles like in the household.

My grandfathers both were the providers, grandmothers they took care of the house and they managed the household. I'm very newly married, but something that I really admire about their generation is really just like how much trust they had in each other. Both of my grandfathers took risks in their careers and worked very hard. I think now that I'm married, I can't help but ignore the strength and trust that my grandmothers had to have had in them to continue to provide for their family while staying at home and watching them work super hard and take these risks. So I think the values of continuing to have that family dynamic, trust, and just very strong work ethic.

I think that they do things the way that we should do things. And they have a very good moral compass in that. Honestly, I strive to bring our generation back to those values. 

David Zerfoss: I think Isabelle makes many powerful points. The one that resonates with me on that, again, is probably reflection.

My mother never drove a car. And it wasn't that I don't think that she wasn't able to, there was this division of duties and responsibilities that you could say that's a little, old fashioned. But I also think as I'm reflecting on what you're sharing is that I use the term many times in leadership is you have to gather people around you you're equally yoked to . My dad did certain things. She did certain things and they depended and counted on each other that those would be done with a common interest of where they were not just as a terrible duty to do, but one that they embraced and they supported each other no matter what.

That's a perfect example of being equally yoked as you share that. I would say is you can't build any organization and it starts in the home and you can't build one at home if that isn't working and you can't build one that whatever organization you're part of in the outside world, so to speak.

Katherine Jeffery: And Dave, you mentioned the idea of support, like best supporting each other. So how do the two of you think that different generations can best support each other?

Isabelle Patterson: I think that we can best support each other by teaching each other our strengths, giving each other different perspectives to think about and helping each other grow with potentially areas that we can both improve upon. And collaborating on those.

David Zerfoss: I think incredibly important is to be a student of each generation and to listen.

Not be biased, not make judgements, but understand perspectives of where they are and who they are because they come together. See behind me, one of the things is a thousand piece puzzle. And I use that as an example all the time is, but I'm starting to run out of folks Isabel that knew what a thousand piece puzzle is inside of that.

But is it, you're constantly a thousand piece puzzles. I told folks. Are there, there's not like one guru other than my basis and my faith there is, but we're putting these pieces together all the time, and a beautiful picture, or mosaic or whatever comes from putting all these beautiful genius pieces together.

And when you have that belief you go into not judging another generation, you look at what gifts they can bring into the room that make the picture more beautiful. That's a constant to me is being an awareness of that. But it also has to be a foundation of who you are too, that you respect others.

Now, I don't agree with all others, and and you have to pick your place in time where that's appropriate to disagree.

Everyone's bringing a genius and a gift in a room, and it's gonna make a beautiful puzzle, but only if you understand it and that for you to see it. Because Galileo had a great quote is that truths are simple once you discover them.

And so our job is to discover all the time. And there's a truth that every generation brings amazing gifts. But to make that work, and that is, you probably need some diplomacy to make, to have them work. And sometimes you gotta be an interpreter. But if you bring people together for a common purpose and they pull themselves together, it's a beautiful thing.

Katherine Jeffery: Yes. And maintaining a mindset of curiosity. Yeah. Seeking to understand. So good from 

David Zerfoss: the other I was thinking about is every human being should go through Katherine's seminar. That would be the other thing I would say is to understand these different islands now. Do we bring them together?

Katherine Jeffery: Thanks Dave, for that little commercial there. 

David Zerfoss: I just call it the way it is.

Katherine Jeffery: Alright. Then, just to get your final thoughts on this one, if you could give advice to someone who's just entering the workforce, what would it be? As a Gen Zer and as a Traditionalist. 

Isabelle Patterson: Wow. I would say keep an open mind. Learn from others good and bad. Make sure to continue to strive to grow and figure out areas that you have really strong strengths and share those strengths with others, but also lean on others where you might have your downfalls and learn from them.

That would probably be my biggest advice. Great.

David Zerfoss: Katherine Mine would really dovetail on Isabelle's is that I think the most critical thing is for them to be themselves. Do not be conformed to the world, but be conformed to what you believe and who you are and that uniqueness. To do that is, it's a constant study of the purpose.

Understanding. First of all, you are unique, you are different et cetera. And don't go along just to go along with the world. You need to take your stand. But it does take reflection over time. And I know it's not like lightning bolt, but I know there is some young folks that know from a certain age that's who they're gonna be, whatever.

I think that's really great. It it took me a little time to work on that, but the aspect of it is when you define your purpose and the purpose is really who you are and what you are, and it's understanding is the things that sort of light you up and interest you, light you up in a positive way.

I know that can go either way, but light you up in a positive way and understand us. And every time is each of those pieces of that puzzle you put together of who you are and what you enjoy doing most. And who is with et cetera, is studying that. Because as you form and finalize your purpose, it gives you a basis for joy in life.

And I think this is so important because I know folks get confound as gotta find work-life balance . The basic aspect is that a great speaker used the illustration is the world is never in balance. It's always going a little bit this way or a little bit that way, a little bit this way, a little bit that way.

Or huge shifts. And the basis of your joy and success in life will not be, do I have exactly 50% of the time with my friends and 50% of the time working? It's gonna be what lights you up.

And Elon Musk, he's standing in Mars and calling people forward to Mars. Now, he, it extraordinary, genius, extraordinary work.

I'm not saying you got to be that, but when you're driven by purpose is, that's when your joy and success in life comes. Obviously responsibilities to those who you love to. In addition to that, when you find that purpose and solidify that purpose it's incredible how life changes.

Katherine Jeffery: Amazing. Amazing. You all. Thank you both for your insights, your vulnerability, and your openness. Really, it was wonderful to watch the warmth and the mutual respect you have for each other during this conversation. And there's such power and pausing to listen across the generational lines. So thank you both for modeling humility and curiosity, and even just a shared sense of humanity.

We're all in this together, and there's so much we can learn and traditionalists continue to remind us of the value of commitment and service and long-term perspective. And Gen Z challenges us to prioritize mental wellbeing and purposeful work. But I would say both generations today made it very clear that purposeful work is essential.

And GenShift isn't just about one generation catching up to another. It's about every generation shifting a little bit toward each other. And when Traditionalists and Gen Z meet halfway wisdom and innovation finally get to work side by side. So it's not about who's right, it's about who's willing to reach.

So thank you both. You were phenomenal. I could talk to you all day. I actually have more questions, I can't take up your entire day. I was so rich. But yeah, you all are phenomenal human beings and I just thank you for all that you've brought to the audience because I think people are really interested in this conversation and want to learn how to build bridges.

And so sometimes by just speaking out and saying an example for what a conversation looks like, that can change people's perspectives on how they themselves can enter into a similar space. So thank you for plowing the road ahead of us and making a way for some of us who might feel a little more reticent to take those steps to build those bridges.

Isabelle Patterson: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it, and it's always great to have a conversation with Dave. This has been so much fun and looking forward to more conversations around this. 

Katherine Jeffery: Yeah. Who doesn't want more time with Dave, right? Isabel?  

Isabelle Patterson: I know. 

David Zerfoss: You are very kind. I would just say right back at you is just the gifts Isabelle brings in the room.

But the aspect is the beauty of the gifts that she brings in the room and the depth of those and the thinking. It it gives me such. Even more faith in the future when we had this much chance to have this personal conversation and Katherine, keep up the work you do, you might be able to save this planet.

If we can just learn to enjoy the gifts of others, but also give them instruction or share instruction on how to move forward for a world that is relevant and will continue to exist. And I know the good Lord has a plan. That's right. 

Katherine Jeffery: There is a plan. 

David Zerfoss: It's bigger than me, that's for sure. 

Katherine Jeffery : That's right. 

Upcoming episodes include boomers, millennials, and Gen X with a look at their perspectives on life and their values at work. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to GenShift. Leave a review. Share this episode with someone navigating generational dynamics, and please feel free to reach out with stories, questions, or feedback.

This is GenShift where generations explore work, life, and leadership.